Composting with black soldier fly larvae and composting with earthworms (vermicomposting) are not competing technologies as much as they are complimentary. I’m not speaking from personal experience or research, but I believe it because I was told this by Dr. Paul Olivier, the inventor of the BioPod and one of the pioneers of black soldier fly research.
Add another hobby to the list
It was Dr. Olivier’s work that first inspired me to work with black soldier fly larvae (Hermetia illucens), so his enthusiasm for vermiculture is enough to motive me to try my hand with worms. Apparently the friable compost that is a byproduct of BSF composting is a superior medium for raising earthworms. As soon as my larvae have produced sufficient compost I’ll start a worm bin. In this article Dr. Olivier mentions the beneficial relationship between red worms and black soldier fly larvae that can be utilized for maximal waste processing
Calling all earthworm enthusiasts
I would like to exchange ideas and information with anyone experienced in vermiculture and who is interested in incorporating black soldier fly larvae into their systems. Feel free to post a comment, send me an email, or better yet, join the BioPod forum and post in the Vermiculture section. The forum is brand new so it’s pretty quiet now, but it should be a good place to discuss these two composting techniques. I started a thread in the Vermiculture section and you can find it here.
Hi Jerry,
I discovered BSF larvae in my compost bin a few weeks ago and I think I have read every shred of information available on the net. Very interesting little critters.
I have a Rubbermaid compost bin about 3′ x 3′ in which we place our kitchen scraps. If we put them in the regular pile, the two dogs get into it. Now and then I add some brown stuff like grass clippings and recycled potting soil. The first time I saw them I was seriously repulsed. They were all over a cantaloupe rind. Went in and looked them up and have been hooked ever since.
Went back out and looked again, and every time I open the bin there are at least 5 females flying around and lighting here and there. I had never even noticed them. They seem to like laying eggs on coffee filters. The larvae will just chew through the filter and eat the coffee grounds. There are numerous air holes in the bin and the adults seem to be able to find their way in and out.
I don’t have fish or chickens (would like to) so I guess I can harvest them for the birds, lizards and frogs.
I would love to have a BioPod but my husband thinks I’m nuts to pay money for maggot breeding. I might try Stacy’s idea with the PVC pipe.
One question, my main goal was compost. Will there ever be a time when it is safe to use the compost left behind, or is it a permanent breeding bin now? How would you extract the larvae out, or is that even necessary? I saw a YouTube video where a guy put a large butter tub, drilled with largish holes, on top with some yummy scrap in it. Supposedly they go in after the scrap and can’t find their way out. Is that a good method?
Hi Connie,
Yes, BSF do really like melons and coffee!
I didn’t have any animals to feed my grubs to when I first started keeping BSF either. I simply released them. I may have released as many as 100,000 mature grubs over the past few years and the adult BSF are only noticeable around my BioPod. I still haven’t had one come into the house yet. If you release them on your property they will be shared by the long list of wild critters that love to eat BSF grubs.
Of course husbands are always right, but there is a point to culturing BSF beyond just “maggot breeding”. By maintaining a BSF colony you’re accessing a powerful natural engine that converts waste into life. The amount and types of waste you can compost with traditional methods is very limited compared to what you can do with a BSF colony at your disposal.
You certainly can use the compose. If you separate a portion of it from the main pile the BSF will soon cycle out of it assuming you don’t add more food scraps to it. The BSF grubs are there for one reason, food. If the compost is in an open container the grubs will simply leave after any remaining food is consumed. You could even use it for outdoor needs while the BSF are in it. I don’t think it will harm the grubs, they would just crawl off in search of rotting food to consume.
You can also remove the light colored juvenile grubs with the method you described in the YouTube video. I describe how I do it here: http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2008/07/25/collecting-immature-larvae/
Hi Jerry, thanks for your response!
I am going to try using the compost soon. I just fed them some cantaloupe so I’ll have to wait a few days. I have about 20 cantaloupes on the vine now but I figure there will be a new batch of larvae to take care of those remains by then.
I just love the whole idea of recycling with BSFL. Your web site has so much good information, I’ll be back.
Jerry, how do you think plastic gutter material would do as a ramp?
I get the design of the BioPod, with the molded circular ramps…no matter which way they go, they’ll eventually find one and the curved edge keeps them from falling off at the top. Have to convince Hubby it’s worthwhile. He’s hard-headed if he didn’t come up with the idea.
I’m sure he’ll come around since he wants to build a Koi pond…do you know if Koi’s like them?
Connie, any plastic in the right shape will work. Here’s the best advice I can give you; whatever your husband thinks is a good idea is a good idea.
Your Koi will grow fat and healthy eating BSF grubs. I think BSF could supply 25% of their diet or maybe more.
Hey Jerry! I’m scheming with some people that are interested in doing a vermi/BSFL-composting system, but on a large scale. Instead of household waste management, we’re thinking more like a city. Do you have any experience, or maybe some references to point me towards in that regard?
My biggest question is, can the BioPod design be expanded to hold more than the household one does, or is there a reason for the size being the way it is that keeps the BSFs happy? Thanks!
Hi Josh,
Using both worms and BSF to process the same waste give great results, but combining the two species in one container may prove to be difficult. Worms and BSF don’t harm each other but they don’t reach their maximum potentials under the same environmental conditions. Worms do thrive in BSF residue to at the least you can work with them that way. I’m not aware of any projects on the scale you’re thinking of but if I hear of any I’ll let you know.
Any size container is fine for BSF with the main concerns being that you contain the juvenile larvae and that you provide adequate drainage.
We have been using bsf larvae as fish bait for decades here in the Philippines.We get our bsf larvae from the soil with lots of rotten coconut meat. Try using coconut meat to attract bsf.
Thanks for the information nopi. It’s good to hear about people benefiting from BSF. I live in the southeast US and BSF larvae have also been used as fish bait here for decades. Earthworms are much more commonly used and sold here, but people who use BSF usually prefer them over worms when they can find them. The BSF mating season is just beginning here and I will try your suggestion of using coconut meat to attract the adults.
Thanks so much for all this info. I have been vermicomposting with red worms for almost one year and I have enjoyed every moment. Unfortunately most people shake their head or laugh (as most of you know). I am trying to attain a sustainable farm. I am now interested in trying to encourage growth of BSF in my outdoor compost pile. I will visit this site often now that I found others with similar interest. Thank again from Nebraska!
Hi Kim,
You’re welcome, I’m glad to have you as a visitor.
To entice BSF to your compost pile you can go a little heavy on the addition of kitchen scraps. You can also put out a container of whole dried corn kernels soaked in water. If you keep most of the corn submerged it will ferment which creates a great smell for attracting BSF females. A few weeks after the BSF eggs are laid in the corn container you will start to notice the larvae. It takes four days for the BSF eggs to hatch and another week or two for the tiny larvae to grow big enough to see easily. Once you establish BSF in your compost pile you might want to progress further to my DIY bucket composter. It’s a great way to observe the larvae closely and if you have chickens or other livestock/pets you’ll be able to use the harvested larvae.
One more question for now. I have a very large pile of horse manure and some chicken manure, do I need to add something to that? I want to use them for fish bait and chicken food. I am hoping that we have them in our region. I am going to check with my extension service.
Kim, most of Nebraska seems too cold for BSF but occasionally I hear about wild populations in unexpected places. Of course your chances of having BSF are much better if you’re in the southern part of the state. If you’ve had chickens for a few seasons and haven’t noticed BSF in their manure I would be less optimistic. I’m not sure how attractive horse manure is to BSF but they’re found in chicken manure fairly often. The problem with herbivore manure is that it contains high cellulose material which BSF don’t thrive on. The chicken manure might be enough to attract BSF but I would add kitchen scraps to increase the chances.
If you don’t have BSF in your area you could still experiment with maintaining your own population. They should be able to reproduce as usual during the warm season and then you would need to store the larvae in a semi dormant state through the winter. It’s easy to overwinter them; just make sure they stay moist and don’t let them freeze.
Hi Jerry! I am so glad I have you to ask all these questions, and I very much appreciate all your knowledge on the subject. I got my worm composter a year ago as a gift from my husband. I have now hinted about a biopod would make a great birthday gift. We are trying to make plans to have a small green house by winter. Will it work to keep my biopod going in winter if they are warm enough? I am trying to find a small local group with an interest in vermicomposting. So far, no luck. I want to order some biogrubs to get me started. How do I care for them when they arrive?
Kim,
I’m happy to help. You can operate a colony of BSF larvae even in a cold environment if you insulate the container and feed them regularly. In that case you won’t have reproduction but the larvae you have at the end of the summer will remain in the juvenile state and continue eating until they pupate in spring. Of course you can’t harvest many of them because you only have a fixed number of them. To harvest larvae throughout winter you would need to have reproduction. That would require fairly high temps, probably in the 80′s which can be expensive to maintain in a greenhouse. Even in a heated environment I think it would be tricky to pull off. I’ve never tried anything like that so I can’t be much help there.
Concerning the new BioPod Plus; I haven’t tested one and therefore I can’t recommend them and we aren’t selling them at this time. I will be selling starter kits in a few weeks since mating is just beginning where I live. For information about our kit you can read this page: http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/bsf-multi-stage-starter-kit/
I have put the corn in the bucket, like you recommended. I have it in a black trash can with small holes drilled. It has been kind of cool here for 2 days, but the black container seems to stay warm. The bucket almost looks like it is boiling ( maybe fermentation has started?) I am going to attach some coffee filters inside the lid in the morning. I will find a better container once I get them started. I have an idea to put one of my compost bins below my bunny cage. Would that work if I add kitchen scraps to it. I have many ideas, I just need to get at least a small population here to experiment with. My hubby has told me to find a place to order them if need be. What is the most reputable place to find some. I don’t want to end up with the wrong critters. How do I start them when they get here? Sorry for so many questions, I just have to ask them so that I will sleep.
Kim,
Since you last commented I remembered that someone I post with on another forum is from Lincoln NE. He is fairly certain he’s seen BSF there and he’s an intelligent person. That bodes well for southern NE, but I’m afraid you’re a bit early for attracting BSF. If there are BSF in your area I would think they’re still buried in the ground waiting for warmer weather before they emerge to mate. I checked historical weather data for Lincoln and I would guess that BSF will become active there around mid May, maybe a little later. I live about 30 miles north of Tallahassee, FL and I just saw my first adult BSF of the season on April 12th.
As I mentioned a few comments ago, I will be offering starter kits in a few weeks. I think the kits I promote here are the best because they container multiple life stages including eggs. That arrangement gives you actively feeding BSF larvae for a month or more before they mature. The main reason a kit helps attract wild BSF is because actively feeding juvenile larvae are a powerful attractant to female BSF. You can also order Phoenix Worms in some pet stores or on the internet which are the same larvae, just branded with a more appealing name. Phoenix worms should be available now, but they cost significantly more because they’re raised under special conditions as exotic pet feed. There are also a few sources of BSF larvae for starting a colony but I can’t speak to their quality. All of those I’ve seen in the past consist of a single age group of juvenile larvae without the benefit of eggs or mature larvae. The link I posted above explains this in detail. Anyway, I don’t recommend getting any starter kit before the weather can support BSF mating and for that you probably need temps averaging in the high 70′s. When I saw my first of the year we had already had a handful of days in the 80′s.
That is what I thought, it’s too early. I am still going to keep my outdoor composter going. I will just keep it more moist than normal. I have alot of fruit peels and scraps. I will add coffee grounds to keep the odor down on warmer days. I am interested in the start up kit when they are available. Thanks again for all the info. Have a great day!!!
I live on long island, just found your site, very helpful. I just placed an order for about 250 larve. Is it breeding time up here? I want to feed them to the reptiles i have how long should i feed them healthy stuff before they got all the junk out of their system from in the bin?
Hi george,
I’m afraid it might be several weeks before it’s warm enough there to support BSF mating. It’s starts in south Georgia in mid May when temps are getting into the 80′s, however Seattle and Vancouver have wild BSF and they have much cooler weather. BSF definitely prefer hot weather but there seems to be regional variations. July will be good in Long Island, maybe sooner.
BSF eat so much that I would think a day or two would be enough. In general bacteria don’t fare well in waste dominated by BSF.
Thanks. Love this site.
Thank you for your great website and all the information you provide!! We have a self-contained three-tier “Can-O-Worms” vermiculture bin, and the BSFL have been thriving in this as well as the earthworms (much to our initial surprise when we first discovered many unknown creatures clinging to the underside of the lid – BSFL looking to pupate, as we learned form your site).
My question is what you’d recommend as the best way we could modify the layers of our bin to allow the BSFL to escape when they’re ready – should we drill a hole in each layer with a tube as a “ramp” somehow inserted into the hole to provide an escape route? Our main concerns are keeping the earthworms inside while preventing unwelcome bugs from intruding; since the system is designed to be closed for earthworm culture, we’re a little hesitant in making permanent changes without some outside advise.
Hi Nancy,
I’m glad you’re interested in nurturing your BSF. I haven’t worked with the Can-o-worms but I can give some general advice that might help. One misconception that trips people up is that the larvae will seek out a ramp. In designing a ramp you have to place it in the path of the larvae. When the larvae mature they try to crawl away from the food source and in a container they will reach the wall and then continuously circle unless they come to an exit. I’m not sure if you could use the tube ramp from my DIY bucket design, but even if you could I don’t know if the worms would also use it.
You might find that collecting the juvenile larvae is easier than designing a ramp for the mature larvae. Whereas you can’t attract mature larvae with food because they don’t eat in that stage you can do that with the light colored juveniles. Here is a post about collecting the juveniles that might help you: http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2008/07/25/collecting-immature-larvae/
You might be able to minimize the number of BSF in the COW by operating a dedicated BSF unit next to it. Like the COW it is a nearly odor free process when done right and if you have a BSF unit next to the COW I think most of the BSF females will opt to lay in that. Of course you will still probably get some BSF in the worm bin unless you move it into a garage or screen enclosure.
I wish I could give more specific advice, please let me know what you come up with.
What a terrific website and clear photos & writing for the bucket system! I live at 3500′ in the California Sierra Foothills and had BSF larvae last summer in my worm bin, but I didn’t know at the time what they were. I left them to work their magic and then they disappeared. Now I’ve got the parts for the bucket II system and have two questions. Could I substitute clear vinyl tubing for the nylon 1/2″ tubing? If not, where do you suggest looking for it? My local hardware store carries polyprolene and vinyl, but not nylon. Perhaps the brew supply store will have it.
My second question is about insulating the bucket for winter activity. I have some excess foam insulation board and was thinking of lining a larger box with it, such as in my current orange peel composter, and then plopping the bucket system within the insulated bin. Thoughts? If you’ve already covered these questions, please direct me – I haven’t yet perused all the posts because there is so much good information here!
Thanks.
Barbara
Hi Barbara,
I was mistaken when I wrote “nylon tubing” in the post and I’ve changed it to vinyl which is what I used. The barb adapter I used is nylon. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. The truth is you can use a wide variety of materials. I’m thinking about ordering some tappers that are sold for beer and wine making with plastic buckets. In that case I may attach tubing to the tapper or just drain the liquid directly into a container for disposal. The clear tubing does give you advantage of being able to monitor the level of the liquid, I’m just not sure yet how much I’ll use that information.
Keeping the bucket in a larger insulated box will help, but the concept is to preserve the heat generated by the larvae and the larger the space you try to heat the less effective it will be. The box could be a good secondary form of insulation, somewhat like keeping the bucket in a shed or garage for the winter. The best way to preserve the heat of the larvae is to place an insulating disc directly on top of the waste. You would remove the disc each time you add food. In my bucket composter you could remove the harvest tube in the winter because few larvae will mature. Something to consider; if you keep the colony too warm you might get a large percentage of larvae maturing which won’t serve much of a purpose. I think a good arrangement for winter composting would be to keep the bucket in a protected space that stays between 50-60ºF (10-15ºC) and to use the insulated disc on the waste. I’ve used plain Styrofoam, but it gets torn up by the larvae. I intend on experimenting with different materials in the future.
I hope your BSF become active soon Barbara. If I were you I would start fermenting some corn ASAP as an attractant. The batch I made 5 weeks ago is performing very well now. Good luck!
Hola Jerry
Muy interesante para el control y manejo ambiental por todas sus implicaciones,necesito más información en español si es posible, mi ingés no es el mejor, en colombia dónde puedo conseguir las larvas .
mil gracias Allen
Hola Allen,
Mi español es quizá un poco mejor que su inglés. Qué ahora estoy escribiendo se ha traducido usando ” Babelfish” traductor disponible en http://babelfish.yahoo.com/. No sé dónde usted puede ser que encuentre las larvas en Colombia. Usted puede querer investigar esta organización: http://biosystemsblog.com/about/. Realizan la investigación con BSF en Bogata.
(translated using Babel Fish Translator)
I got my starter kit, and installed the bag, but everything looks dead. Shall I give it a few days? Is there something I can do? Did they get too hot in shipping? It was very fast shipping, so I wouldn’t think so.
Hi Kim,
Yes, the shipping was quick but it only takes a few seconds of extreme heat to kill the larvae. Your kit was guaranteed and I will email you to discuss your options.
I wish I could get rid of the BSF in my worm bins; they make everything so mushy and difficult to get out. Before it was nice, black and crumbly (good ‘black gold’). If I can’t get rid of them I am probably going to find another home for the worms and wash everything out of the bins.
Same thing happening in my compost bins. Everything turns mushy. I am starting to put cantaloupe rinds on the very top and when the BSF ‘maggots’ cover it, I pour boiling water over them as they are just taking over. Gross.
Elfrieda,
I’m having a hard time reconciling your email address “greenelf” with your pouring boiling water over harmless and greatly beneficial creatures that are fulfilling a crucial role in nature. What is “gross” is your attitude and behavior. If you educate yourself about BSF, an integral part of your environment, you might learn how to keep them out of your worm bins and you might also lose some of the close-mindedness that you’ve displayed here.
Hi Jerry, Just a note to let you know how things are going here in Buffalo, NY. Your starter kit was received very quickly and arrived in excellent condition. The contents were placed in their new home, ver. 1 bucket, as per your instructions. It has been about a month and a half and things are going better than expected. I had to learn about moisture control and feeding. I am happy to say that the BSF have left, mated, returned and I now have new larvae. Thanks to all on this blog, and especially you, for all the information that has been provided.
Now the challenge of keeping them alive over the winter.
Thanks again, Bill in Buffalo, NY
Bill, that’s great to hear.
I’m not sure but I think you might be my first customer to establish a reproducing BSF colony in an area with no native BSF. I really doubt they’re found in Buffalo. I recommend that you protect as many larvae through maturity and pupation so you have the maximum number of mating adults to build up your colony. I’ll be glad to advise you this fall about getting ready for winter if you like, although since I live near Florida I don’t have experience with BSF in very cold conditions. We could both learn a lot from your experience.
Not having time to read all the posts to present, but having read many, let me say this. With over 20 years experience and teaching on worms, my team and I have a pretty good understanding of what can and cannot be done with earth worms. I have noticed some truths and some half truths and some false info on some of the posts, so let me try to clarify some of what I have read. Perhaps this will help in your search for mixing the worms with the BSF.
1. It makes a big difference as to the type of worm that you use in composting. If you use night crawlers for instance, they are slow to reproduce and they do eat the produce of all types that you put into the compost bin including meats.
If you use the preferred Red Wigglers, of the which we sell, they reproduce fast and consume their body weight in food each day. They do NOT however eat the material you put into the compost bin, but rather they eat the bacteria that develops on the composting material. Just this process alone will speed up the composting process by some 3 times that of just letting things rot.
All pathogens will be destroyed in the worms gut as well as heavy metals.
Because the red wigglers eat a different food source than the BSF, they can co-habitate. The two challenges do arise and that is the temp. control and the harvesting.
This would be a work through project to see what could actually work. Perhaps letting the worms exist in a bin below the BSF unit and let them process some of the sludge, or simply clean out the unit once a month. Keeping the plastic out of direct sunlight would help keep the heat down.
A wooden bin would solve the heat problem and line the outside rim with pvc pipe with about 1/4 of a slit cut length ways to let the grubs crawl into as they reach the top of the bin and from there they enter a down spout exit hole.
Lots available here for trial and error but if you have any questions about the little red wigglers, drop me a line. I’ll be glad to assist where I can.
Hi, I am glad I found this post!
Yesterday, after a week of not supervising my compost/vermiculture bin, I checked it to see how the worms were doing and if there were any changes in population size, temperature, etc.
To my surprise, the earthworms were gone. Gone!
I was told this could happen, that if they didn’t like the conditions, they would just move on to a better suited location. Thing is, it happened so fast! I’ve had them for 2 months and they were doing fine, now all of a sudden they are nowhere to be found, and instead I have an overpopulation of overexcited larvae, eating everything that comes across their path… (after some research I found that they were BSF larvae)
I got a bit desperate, but now that I read that these guys are actually used for composting, well, I feel more relieved!
And it all happened by chance! I never introduced the larvae or the fly… I guess they found their way to invade the box? or maybe there were some eggs on fruit or vegetables I added to the box?
Anyway, excuse my ignorance… I am a first-timer to vermiculture/composting, and I am not so used to having hyperactive creeters in my balcony!
Now, I’d like to ask a question… should I try and reintroduce earthworms to the compost bin? should I add anything to the compost in order to make it more earthworm friendly?
Thank you and good luck!
Laura (Argentina)
Laura, what kind of worms are you raising there in Argentina?
I do raise a colony of eisenia foetida in BSF residue mixed with shredded newspaper and cardboard. I do not feed any food to the worm bin other than pre-digested BSF residue. The worms seem to love it and are thriving. I process all the “typicall” worms foods through my BSF bins before feeding the worms.
Since you evidently have a native population of Black Soldier Flies there, you might want to consider feeding the input you would normally feed to your worms to the BSF instead. Then later on, harvest the residue from the BSF bin to feed to the worms. Though you will doubtless have some BSF still appear in your worm bin, by not feeding the worm bin fresh food they will not be as dense as they might otherwise be and will be less likely to generate conditions unfavorable to your worms.
Though I only feed “clean” BSF residue to my worms, I still see a number of BSF larvae in the worm bin. But the fact I am adding no fresh food keeps the BSF population in check and allows the worms to peacefully co-exist.
Good luck with your worms! (And your BSF!)
Hi! I’m searching for a supplier for black soldier flies in the Philippines. Know of anyone?
What happens if you don’t harvest the mature larvae? Is that okay? They’ll probably just die off, right?
You probably have a good native population there, Chris, and can attract them yourself without buying a starter culture. Unharvested larvae will either find a way to crawl off on their own, pupate in the bin, or just die off. Unless you are deliberately seeking to harvest them, none of the above represents a problem.
My corn cob (I ate the kernels) has been in a glass of water for about a week now. No sign of any sort of larvae yet. Strangely enough, there’s no smell.