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 BSF larvae development (mortality).... 
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Post BSF larvae development (mortality)....
I´m rearing BSF for about two months. During this time I made a lot of notes that are making me more confident. But a lot of questions are raising too! All of you are helping me to solve many of then... Thank you all!

One of my newly questions is about larvae mortality. No matter the substrate is good or not I always see some death larvae in different stages. It´s impossible for me at this point of my research to determine the total amount of death ones or the percentage of mortality. It is not too high, but there are some.

One of possibilities of the death:

I´m taking out the new larvae from one site and in a specific substrate (oranges and wheat bran) and putting them to other (coir with food waste). This change can cause some alteration in their gut and let then die?

Excess or moist shortage??

Predators (insects, mites, others)

others (???)

Is there anyone that are able to change some experience?

p.s. I´m sure they are death, during this time I´ve learnt how to compare a pupae or a instar changing larvae from a death one.


Fri May 20, 2011 8:18 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
agropisa wrote:
I´m rearing BSF for about two months. During this time I made a lot of notes that are making me more confident. But a lot of questions are raising too! All of you are helping me to solve many of then... Thank you all!

One of my newly questions is about larvae mortality. No matter the substrate is good or not I always see some death larvae in different stages. It´s impossible for me at this point of my research to determine the total amount of death ones or the percentage of mortality. It is not too high, but there are some.

One of possibilities of the death:

I´m taking out the new larvae from one site and in a specific substrate (oranges and wheat bran) and putting them to other (coir with food waste). This change can cause some alteration in their gut and let then die?

I would be surprised if moving them or changing the food type would do that but I'm certainly not sure about it.

Quote:
Excess or moist shortage??

I've found BSFL thriving in liquid environments when there was ample nutrition available so I doubt it could be too much moisture.

I have read that when moisture levels fall below 70% BSFL begin losing body mass.

Quote:
Predators (insects, mites, others)

I wouldn't be surprised but I'm not knowledgeable on the subject.

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Sat May 21, 2011 5:57 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
hey y'all,

I started an experiment today to try and decipher something about the mortality issue. As I may have mentioned I lost a few bins mid to late last year and have been watching real closely lately. I gathered one bin in which I had picked out some dead ones yesterday and transferred it into a shallow cement-mixing container. Brought it in the house and set it on a convenient table to do a thorough pick-through which took about an hour. I plan to feed them out inside and go through them daily so as to rule out the heat-shock component - not that if there was one some are still reeling and will die - but the 30 pounds of substrate is just seething with healthy ones presently. So, less than 2 percent were dead approximately. The smell had changed perceptibly outdoors and it made me wonder - if it wasn't heat shock could it possibly be that in a contained environment like a bin could they reach a density whereby they die in their own waste? I haven't run across that idea anywhere but thinking about how they would be in a normal environment in a compost pile or wherever it seems like a lesser density per square inch would be common. So I thought well maybe the change in smell has to do with the waste level and not the decaying carcasses since there's so few of them overall. Just a hypothesis but it should be easy to test. Gridding it with last years experience is hard because I was harvesting by hand to feed the chickens constantly and splitting bins a mile a minute it seemed. I was far more worried about heat stress and did see them clustering madly to get out a few times when the pile hit 112 to 116. I'll update with any insights gained with this bin but if they keep dying I'll have to suspect the milieu. I'm only feeding fruits, veggies and grain. I'm real curious to see if there's any further die-off tomorrow. We'll see what my wife thinks about having a bin in the house but I have a few more days while she's off travelling. Happy grubbing to all. John


Mon May 23, 2011 9:40 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
I never thought about the environment being too dry...I have been using sawdust to manage the moisture and I have been keeping it rather dry in there.

One thing that I did think was kinda odd was that there seemed to be small, brown mature larvae instead of the larger brown mature larvae. Could this be because it is too dry?

What about temperature management? Does a more more liquid environment help manage the heat in a system during the summer time or does dry do better?


Mon May 23, 2011 11:26 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
lsmikell wrote:
I never thought about the environment being too dry...I have been using sawdust to manage the moisture and I have been keeping it rather dry in there.

One thing that I did think was kinda odd was that there seemed to be small, brown mature larvae instead of the larger brown mature larvae. Could this be because it is too dry?

What about temperature management? Does a more more liquid environment help manage the heat in a system during the summer time or does dry do better?

Lee, I've heard that BSF larvae begin losing body mass when the moisture level in their environment falls below 70%.

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Tue May 24, 2011 12:11 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
hi Ismikell,

I've had alot of small mature grubs that come out of the same bin as large ones so I wouldn't think that it's a moisture issue. I've wondered about it too. They turn into adult flies just as well as the big ones from what I've seen since I had a couple of statistical experiments going last year to find out how short and how long the pupation stage could be and I never noticed an overabundance of smaller ones left over after I lost interest in watching and counting new flies. The shell casings are further evidence that the small ones pupate just fine. Maybe it's just like other species where there's a noticeable spread in size of adults.


Tue May 24, 2011 12:48 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
in fact I pulled about 30 mature grubs out during my culling of the dead today and they had a bit of a range in size with a few smallish ones and mostly moderately large. Every once in awhile I notice one or two that are as much bigger than the norm as the smallish ones are smaller than the norm. Maybe it's related to getting into a "sweet spot" in the bin and whether or not they've had the best opportunity to pig out on the food? It could be that their genetic program only gives them so much time to feed, at which point they are as big as they're going to get as they transition.


Tue May 24, 2011 12:59 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
Jerry - it finally clicked for me this morning as I was culling dead ones from the cement-mixing bin research project. Dehydration - just like you've been pointing to. The dead ones are almost always in the top inch or so of the pile where it's the dryest since I'm using an open top approach. Even had some freshly dead one's that had been crawling up the side overnight and expired on the way. It explains the observation that when there's a moist and juicy chunk of something up in that upper one-inch it invariably has a bunch of living larvae under it even though there's dead ones very nearby on dryer stuff. I suppose that a grub wanders up into the drier layer and if it doesn't get back down in time it's in trouble. Yikes, I pretty much caused my own problem via the original design - open tops!! So I guess the final proof will be watering them every day. It explains last years die-off as well since I was experimenting with a variety of food sources - some of which didn't retain moisture very well. So some bins got drier for spells than others. Most of the watering I did last year was to bring temperatures down but I wasn't even thinking about overall hydration. What a relief that will be and certainly justifies installing a simple water-mister or drip system on a timer or maybe just a gravity-fed drip.


Wed May 25, 2011 11:49 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
The mortality problem is always greater than it seems.
The reason is that the larvae eat the dead bodies. Not finding dead bodies does not mean that no larva is dying.

Find dead bodies could be several causes:
1) The larvae die very quickly and others do not have time to eat
2) There is an excess of food and larvae prefer the food to the dead bodies
3) The die of asphyxiation in an anaerobic zone, inaccessible to other larvae.
This can occur when too much food is added to the reactor.
4) The larvae are sick ... and the remaining larvae do not eat to avoid contagion.

Several times, my larvae have been sick.The symptoms are always the same:
The larvae stop eating.
Its temperature falls to room temperature.
Some of the corpses begin to appear on the surface.
Its odor changes.
The substrate becomes a bit sticky.

The death toll is rising ... and in 4 or 5 days most of the larvae die.
Then begin to develop other species of insects (mites or housefly).
A few Hermetia larvae can survive more than a month .... but do not eat and eventually die.

It only affects the larvae, pupae and adults are immune.

I don't know what the cause. Maybe this is a virus, bacteria or fungus.

Someone else has experienced this problem?


Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:26 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
albper wrote:
...
It only affects the larvae, pupae and adults are immune.

I don't know what the cause. Maybe this is a virus, bacteria or fungus.

Someone else has experienced this problem?

Interesting. This is the first time I've heard of a mass die off that wasn't temperature or humidity related. Since only the larvae feed any chance that it's poisoning from pesticide or bad feed?

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Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:41 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
BorealWormer wrote:
Interesting. This is the first time I've heard of a mass die off that wasn't temperature or humidity related. Since only the larvae feed any chance that it's poisoning from pesticide or bad feed?


I have suffered massive die offs that have resulted in the total loss of all 5 of my bins. It is not moisture, dryness, humidity, heat, or starvation related. Nor is it pesticide related. A friend who lives fairly close here in Florida has also experienced this. Every time he got a local population established in his bins, a massive die off would occur.

I have another friend working in Jamaica to establish BSF as feed colonies for poultry and aquaculture. He has also recently experienced massive die offs there.

All three of us experiencing this problem are knowledgable and experienced maggot wranglers. We aren't making newbie mistakes. I'm beginning to think there is some sort of disease (bacterial? viral? fungal?) that is afflicting these colonies.

I plan to thoroughly wash and rinse my bins with a bleach and water mixture to disinfect and start back up in late February when local egglaying begins again here.


Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:23 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
I´ll try to explain my experience with this issue. I´m doing a lot of efforts to solve the larvae mortality. Sorry my poor english, since it is not my native language.

I´ve started my project a year ago after reading a lot of information and a good review of scientific papers.
I tried a lot of models of bins and had the same problems in all of then: the larvae were all death in no more than two months.
As I am doing my project inside a greenhouse I always have a huge population of adults to start again. To do that, I always pick the dark brown larvae before the colony colapse.
When I start my project I thought I define that my challenge should be the mating, but in really it is the easiest thing in the project.
Regarding the larvae mortality, in my project I note that they start die whatever the size they are. I had both young and prepupae larvae die no matter the way I conduct the colony. It was a kind of colapse that when the colony had reached a number of larvar and of course a need to increase the food, the problem start to happen....I always had a problem with mites... a lot of them.... they made a film of pure mite in the surface of the substrate and these small mites annoy the grubs to crawl freely in the medium.... At this time I didn´t know if the mite is the cause or the consequence of something I was doing wrong.....
So I decide to return to my studies... I feel sorry about don´t have tools (time and money) to make a research as I used to do and I learnt how to do, so I had to start doing a bit of scientific empiricism.
I focused studies in the substrate after I spent some days just watching some larvae dieing without any kind of symptons of infection or predation (I never saw a single mite biting any grubs - they probably just annoy the free movement of larvae).
The first conclusion that I came into was that I was messing a lot in the substrate, causing a confusion in the normal movement of the larvae. They have some herd instinct that should not be confused (there is a scientific work in Portuguese showing this habit in other species of larvae - caterpillars in truth, but must serve for our larvae). I was messing every single day to see what they are doing under the substrate. Lesson #1: Never mess the substrate. Let the grubs working free. It is a good lesson but it doesn´t solve the mortality problem and even the mite problem.
Aerobic/anaerobic conditions was my second worry in the substrate studies. I started to wonder how much the anaerobic condition was the cause of the larvae mortality. They don´t like anaerobic condition for a long period of time but they can live in such conditions if they can leave this anaerobic part of the substrate when they want. In my notes the problem of anaerobic condition is that the lack of oxigen may alter the size of larvae. At this point my substrate was dry in the surface and with a lot of mites, these mites were pushing the larvae down in the substrate which was the anaerobic area and the result was small prepuae and a lot of mortality. After that I came into a conclusion and I crossed my observations with some good paper from doctor Sheppard and Tomberlin: The larvae are what they eat: The problem of the mortality was regarding the food, and the food is the substrate and its chemical conditions.
In nature this grubs eat always new food. Let´s imagine a fruit that fall down from a tree or a animal that die. The grubs will eat always new food....in nature they avoid to return to its feaces, but when they are inside a bin, they must do it and they are doing it every time! To add to this issue, we are always working with a substrate that is rich in organic matter and water. Organic matter has one role in aerobic conditions (new food) and other role in anaerobic conditions. It is easy to imagine that the pH range of organic matter can range widely if the condition turn from aerobic to anaerobic. So I start to focus on chemical conditions of the substrate. Sheppard and Tomberlin said that this grubs needs a lot of calcium.... Stratiomidae larvae has an exoesqueleton rich in calcium and calcium dinamics changes a lot in different pHs and regarding the oxi-reduction change in the medium.
I always note that before the larvae die their skins became very thin, we can even see the internal organs of larvae that are going to die.... then I related that they could be experiencing a shortage of calcium before die!
I decided to add lime to substrate (I used a tablespoon of a limestone with a 3:1 relation Ca:Mg in 1 ft2). But if you decide to do that don´t repeat the use until you have added of a good layer of new food. I´m doing this for around one month and the mites and mortality problem went away. I think that I had enough bad experiences to assume that things have changed since I start use limestone, but I know that I have to observe more. In this meanwhile I decide to share it with all and hope someone follow my idea, if so, please share with us your experience.
I´ll keep you updated with the evolution of this new colony. This week, the first prepupae start craw off, they are bigger and resistant than the previous bin. The mortality stopped and even the smell of the colony changed.
sorry again for my poor english and thank you all for share your experiences...


Tarvus: In one hand I´m sorry for your problem, but other hand I feel confort that I´m not alone in my problems! regards, good luck and thank you for your massive contribution!


Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:01 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
agropisa wrote:
I decided to add lime to substrate (I used a tablespoon of a limestone with a 3:1 relation Ca:Mg in 1 ft2). But if you decide to do that don´t repeat the use until you have added of a good layer of new food. I´m doing this for around one month and the mites and mortality problem went away. I think that I had enough bad experiences to assume that things have changed since I start use limestone, but I know that I have to observe more. In this meanwhile I decide to share it with all and hope someone follow my idea, if so, please share with us your experience.
I´ll keep you updated with the evolution of this new colony. This week, the first prepupae start craw off, they are bigger and resistant than the previous bin. The mortality stopped and even the smell of the colony changed.
sorry again for my poor english and thank you all for share your experiences...


Tarvus: In one hand I´m sorry for your problem, but other hand I feel confort that I´m not alone in my problems! regards, good luck and thank you for your massive contribution!


This is very interesting, Agropisa! I will have to give this a try! But it makes me wonder if it is, in fact, a calcium deficiency or if it is more of a pH related issue? I've never tested pH of the substrate. Perhaps it becomes overly acidified and the limestone serves to buffer the ph? Or indeed, it could be merely a calcium issue.

I too have noticed the mites all over the surface when a bin is heading for collapse. At least we are discovering some common symptoms. I'm definitely going to try your suggestion. Thanks! :)


Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:47 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
BorealWormer wrote:
Interesting. This is the first time I've heard of a mass die off that wasn't temperature or humidity related. Since only the larvae feed any chance that it's poisoning from pesticide or bad feed?


I was talking to some chicken farmers, and they tell me that chicken feed often contains insecticides to keep the flies down. A quick flip through Google gave me this . . . http://www.ah.novartis.com/products/en/larvadex_flycontrol.shtml


Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:46 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
Tarvus wrote:
agropisa wrote:
I decided to add lime to substrate (I used a tablespoon of a limestone with a 3:1 relation Ca:Mg in 1 ft2). But if you decide to do that don´t repeat the use until you have added of a good layer of new food. I´m doing this for around one month and the mites and mortality problem went away. I think that I had enough bad experiences to assume that things have changed since I start use limestone, but I know that I have to observe more. In this meanwhile I decide to share it with all and hope someone follow my idea, if so, please share with us your experience.
I´ll keep you updated with the evolution of this new colony. This week, the first prepupae start craw off, they are bigger and resistant than the previous bin. The mortality stopped and even the smell of the colony changed.
sorry again for my poor english and thank you all for share your experiences...


Tarvus: In one hand I´m sorry for your problem, but other hand I feel confort that I´m not alone in my problems! regards, good luck and thank you for your massive contribution!


This is very interesting, Agropisa! I will have to give this a try! But it makes me wonder if it is, in fact, a calcium deficiency or if it is more of a pH related issue? I've never tested pH of the substrate. Perhaps it becomes overly acidified and the limestone serves to buffer the ph? Or indeed, it could be merely a calcium issue.

I too have noticed the mites all over the surface when a bin is heading for collapse. At least we are discovering some common symptoms. I'm definitely going to try your suggestion. Thanks! :)


The symptom of change in smell seems to indicate a contamination with bacteria or yeast. This may be the cause or consequence of pH imbalance. The change in consistency of the substrate might also indicate a yeast or bacterial contamination. Contamination will always acidify the environment, possibly lowering the pH to a point where the grubs can no longer survive. In any case, buffering the pH with lime should raise the pH to a level that the grubs can survive, even if the contamination persists.

It is hard to say if a thin exoskeleton is resulting from calcium insufficiency or that the lower pH hinders exoskeleton development.

Anyways, good info to add some lime!


Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:13 am
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
Agropisa, I started up a new bin just last week and now I already see the mites on the substrate surface again. So far the grubs are still doing well, but today I added lime per your suggestion and we will see if it solves the mite problem and prevents colony collapse here too.

Thanks again for the hint!

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Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:58 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
An FYI of another possible resource:

Insectary Pathology Service - Mississippi State University (link)

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Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:54 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
I've moved this thread to the 'Cultivation' section which is a better fit. I'll leave the redirect in place for a month to help folks looking for it.

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Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:53 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
BorealWormer wrote:
I've moved this thread to the 'Cultivation' section which is a better fit. I'll leave the redirect in place for a month to help folks looking for it.


Good idea, BorealWormer!

A quick update on the use of lime: The colony is still thriving and I've seen a reduction in the number ot mites or mite eggs (don't know which it is I'm seeing, mites or mite eggs - they look like pollen scattered on the substrate surface)

Only sporadic egglaying right now, but I haven't checked my egg traps in a couple of days, so it may have picked up within the last day or so. I love this mid 80 degree weather we are having here in southwest Florida! :)

Population has grown to the point where i can start feeding BSF grubs to the tilapia in my aquaponics systems again! :D


Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:50 pm
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Post Re: BSF larvae development (mortality)....
rockjetty wrote:

The symptom of change in smell seems to indicate a contamination with bacteria or yeast. This may be the cause or consequence of pH imbalance. The change in consistency of the substrate might also indicate a yeast or bacterial contamination. Contamination will always acidify the environment, possibly lowering the pH to a point where the grubs can no longer survive. In any case, buffering the pH with lime should raise the pH to a level that the grubs can survive, even if the contamination persists.

It is hard to say if a thin exoskeleton is resulting from calcium insufficiency or that the lower pH hinders exoskeleton development.

Anyways, good info to add some lime!


Agropisa's lime trick has completely eliminated the "sick bin" mortality issue I was experiencing. However, I have an alternate theory about the cause of the issue. I believe the mites that appear which have been discussed as being symptomatic of the issue are in fact the CAUSE of the issue. Internet searches lead me to believe the mites are "Grain Mites". These mites thrive in hot, humid conditions - which an active BSF bin exemplifies. The mites seem to appear first, then the sick BSF symptoms arrive later. I don't think it's calcium related and I really don't think it's pH dependant either. My theory is that the grain mite infestation occurs because they are attracted to the BSF bin environment and that some sort of "chemical weapon" produced by the mites leads to the change in smell rockjetty discusses above and to the BSF mortality. Further, I sort of think the lime sprinkled on the substrate does something to either directly kill the mites, or it renders the environment inhospitable to them and they leave. Once the mites are gone, the BSF recover.

I have several reasons for believing this is a mite caused problem. 1.) I feed multiple bins a consistant, grain based diet. If it was calcium related, all the bins would suffer the deficiency. This is not the case. 2.) Same with the ph: all of the bins would experience a out of kilter pH given consistant inputs from bin to bin. This is also not the case. 3.) I have experienced die-offs only AFTER the mites have appeared. Never BEFORE they appear. 4.) I have experienced "insect war" die-offs before in BSF bins, albeit from a different insect. Healthy, large, multiple colonies of BSF being fed ground up cattle offal were apparently thriving on the diet until an insect called a "Red Legged Ham Beetle" arrived on the scene. Once the beetles infested a bin, the BSF larvae died off quickly thereafter - much the same way they do with the grain mites. The BSF were not being eaten by the beetles as their cadavers were evident throughout the substrate surface - just as with the grain mites.

Again, this is just my theory. I have no clue how the mites may be killing off the BSF, nor do i understand how the powdered lime gets rid of the mites. But is sure seems to get rid of the mites and the BSF quickly recover so I'm going to continue liming my bins whenever I see grain mites appear. Once again, a big thanks to Agropisa for the suggestion!


Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:28 pm
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